Originally Posted by Tyrael_Eveningsong

I tried telling you, Life Bringing, but you didn't want to listen.

Shadow Form has not always been maintainable.

If it was always maintainable, then why only, after the PvE/PvP split, were Assassins able to start farming all sorts of things that they couldn't prior to the split? Because it couldn't be permanently maintained prior, that's why. Friends and I tried, didn't work. It's not that hard to get 16 Shadow Arts, a +20% enchanting mod, and be a /Me secondary for Arcane Echo, which requires no investment. It wasn't always maintainable.

Originally Posted by [DE]

The entire SF argument is basically the Ursan one all over again.

We all know how that ended.

Originally Posted by jeydra

How do you think the super rich got super rich in the first place?

Originally Posted by MisterB

Actually, Shadow Form was possible to maintain permanently after Nightfall's release with the use of Deadly Paradox and Arcane Echo, but the timing was unforgiving. You had only 1 or 2 seconds margin for error.

Deadly Paradox was stronger then than it is now.

So it is correct to say it was not always maintainable, but incorrect to say it could not be maintained before the split when Shadow Form was buffed.

Some links:

Deadly Paradox history

Shadow Form

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Your argument seems to be, "but you need power farming to get to all the Voltaic Spears and Obsidian Armors, so don't nerf farming".

I don't get it. If you can't farm, then you don't get VS's and FoW armor. Objectively, nothing about you has changed. So you don't have prestige armor, but you don't need prestige armor to be effective. Is there a reason why you should have VS's and FoW armor? And if there is, is there a reason why you should be able to farm them so much faster than you would otherwise?

Approach this from another angle as well. Suppose ANet made it possible to farm 10 ectos / hour. You'll still need to work for FoW armor, but you get it really fast. Is this balanced? What about 15 ectos / hour? Where do you draw the line?

And yet another angle: what are you going to do after you have the VS's and FoW armor? As you said, there's nothing to do other than get VS's and FoW armor and maxed Sweet Tooth. What next? Quit?

Originally Posted by Jeydra

They have to become players. They have no choice. If they do not become players, they can't get Thommis HM done (unless they H/H). This will be especially pronounced on ZQ days.

You seem to think that the spirit spammer will be able to get into "playing" teams now. Maybe. But the point is there are very few, if any, playing teams right now. That's because most players simply hitch a ride on VSF runs. Think about it. The whole point of getting more humans is to finish the area faster. But you finish the area fastest by getting a VSF run, and it is so much easier to get a team for VSF. Why would anyone want to "play"? I'm not referring to you, the player. You've already decided to "play". But you can't find anyone else who also wants to "play". There simply aren't enough players.

On the other hand, if Shadow Form gets nerfed and you can't VSF anymore, then anyone who wants to get the ZQ done must either H/H or pick up more humans. Suddenly the player pool multiplies. This is easy to see if you look at a ZQ where there's no such tool to farm and it's moderately hard to H/H - say, Gyala HM. Try getting a human team to PuG Gyala HM and to PuG Thommis HM, and the difference is leagues wide.

You cannot ignore the fact that Shadow Form exists, no matter how much you want to.

Originally Posted by LifeBringing

I still don't get why people think SF is spam skills 123 and somehow win the game and make every foe explode. You all have no idea how ridiculously difficult tanking in DoA is.

People also compare ursan to SF, which is freaking lol. Ursan WAS 123 win the game and make everything explode. Ursan was BAD for the game, it made terrible players think they were pro. The level of skill required for ursan was virtually none.

Originally Posted by traversc

Exactly, Jeydra! I know you meant to disagree with me, but if you think about it, you're basically agreeing with what I just said.

It isn't fair to nerf UWSC after only a few people have gotten rich from it. A nerfing to SF will require compensatory mechanism of some sort.

Originally Posted by upier

There is no "faster than otherwise" in farming. The point of farming is to maximize your profits, so at the end of the day, there is pretty much only one way to do it. And if you aren't running that option, you're doing it wrong.

Originally Posted by upier

The problem is that even with the "insane amount of money coming into the game from SCs" - maxing all those titles will take ages. It won't be near impossible as it is now, if you don't massively farm, but it will still take quite long. SCs don't give you enough money to get God in a week. The amount of money SCs bring in just give you a more realistic timetable to achieve the goals in.

Originally Posted by upier

If the VSF is trashed and a new cookie pops up, then once the ZQuest comes rolling into town, people will run that cookie. The farming cookie works, so people stick with it. And if you don't run it, you won't be able to get into a "farming" team. But to think that "playing" teams will pop up if there is a farming cookie is just silly, as you have proven nicely yourself. The lone player looking to "play" PvE can't get a team because no-one wants to play PvE. And if there is a new cookie, no-one will either.
If on the other hand, the VSF is trashed and the run isn't profitable enough, the farmers will move on. And the only reason why they might return is if the ZQuest is a reward enough to farm it. In which case, I'd imagine, they'll still choose a farming approach, which once again means that lone sucker won't be able to play whatever he wants.
With farmers it's their way or the highway.

So that means the farmers are out of the question.
That leaves the "players". For the "players" to play - there can be no cookie (as said above - if there is a farming cookie, they'll join that one). And that means you are left doing one of the hardest areas in the game with players that can't H/H it or have people they can bug with no suggested team composition that will work.
What do you think is the success rate of such a team?

Take the Ursan-nerf for instance.
Did people move onto "playing" the areas they farmed before with Ursan? Did a new farming cookie show up or they moved away from the areas that can't be farmed as easily OR are the farmers now "playing" in those areas?
If farmers now "play" DoA, you are right.
And if they don't, I am right.

Originally Posted by Jeydra

The way I see it, if you want to farm, fine, but while you get more drops you don't also clear areas faster than otherwise possible. As I've said before, the obvious example of a balanced farm run is the E/Me Smite Crawler Ecto farm. You can do it faster if you bring 8 players, but you get less Ecto drops, so you solo. Another example of a balanced farm run: SS/LB with 5 players instead of 8. Would you complete the run faster with 8 players? Of course, but you get less drops, so you do it with 5. The problem, as I see it, is that Shadow Form enables players to complete areas faster than otherwise possible. VSF is the obvious example. Properly executed VSF is at least 5 times faster than clearing the dungeon the normal way, which I consider imbalanced.

I've said this before, and you must have read it, but missed the point. So I'll emphasize. Let's assume Shadow Form doesn't exist, and consider Duncan HM. How would you do the dungeon? For competent players it's not too bad, you can H/H it. With more players, a reasonable mix of damage and defense would be enough. With PuGs however, you will probably see people do the dungeon via Obsidian tanking. Down from massing permas, this is the next most effective, simple option that bypasses the problem of PuGs being bad.

Now. Do you consider Obsidian tanking farming? Perhaps, but I personally do not. The build is of comparable and perhaps even slightly slower speed to doing it via balanced. The people who do Duncan HM via Obsidian tanking aren't really farming the dungeon - I'd guess they need the dungeon for a book, the Deldrimor Armor Remnant, or whatever. So the fact that Obsidian tanking would be the next most effective method for PuGs to clear Duncan HM is irrelevant. They aren't farming.

Next. You say there will be a "fastest" method, and if you're intent on maximizing profits, you'll run that method. Probably, you are right. But again look at this case study. What is the fastest method to clear Duncan HM, assuming no Shadow Form? I don't know, but I'd hazard some balanced team involving physicals pumping out big damage, ER Infusers, Orders, or something. This will be faster than doing the dungeon via Obsidian tanking, and it will be faster than the best I can do via H/H. Here's the punchline though: it won't be too much faster. If I make no mistakes, I'd guess I can H/H Duncan HM in ~45 minutes. With a full, balanced, topspeed build, perhaps the dungeon can be done in ~30 minutes. The difference is 15 minutes. The "topspeed" method is a third faster. Compare VSF, which is at least 5x faster than the next fastest method. Also compare UWSC. What time difference are we looking at here?

Do you call the team that does Duncan HM with physicals, ER Infusers and Orders farming the dungeon? Maybe, but I don't. It is simply an option to complete the dungeon. It is not that much faster, and if you're going to switch players around etc until you have the perfect mix, you'd have spent all the time you gained in forming the team.

Originally Posted by Jeydra

So what? Do you need to get God Walking Amongst Mere Mortals? Do you want to invest the time? If you don't want to invest the time, why are you so worried with the title that doesn't otherwise affect your playing abilities? Should everyone who plays Guild Wars be automatically entitled to getting GWAMM? How much effort do you think is fair?

Originally Posted by Jeydra

If VSF gets thrashed, then everyone - players or farmers - will have no choice but to "play" if they want to finish the dungeon. There will be no other farming cookie that enables them to do otherwise (Obsidian tanking, as I wrote above, isn't a farming cookie). So all the farmers move on, but that's fine - they weren't in the player pool in the first place anyway. I'll agree that the chances of getting a full player team still isn't very good; there simply aren't enough players around to support it anymore. But you can still get a couple of players, which is better than nothing.

There is a difference between the Ursan nerf resulting in DoA going extinct and VSF. DoA is incredibly hard. Can you 2-man DoA HM? If there's a way, I'm unaware of it; in fact 2-man DoA NM is hard enough without consumables. Can you 2-man Thommis HM? Since I can H/H it, surely 2-man is possible as well. That is the difference. I'd put the UW in the same category. Although I have very little experience with the UW, I don't think it can be done 2-man in HM. 2-man NM is pretty hard too (if only because of the Four Horsemen).

But it's only these two areas. Everywhere else, Shadow Form can die and I don't think the area will die. Sample areas: VSF. Kathandrax. Bogroot Growths.

Originally Posted by upier

I'll just say what I've said a number of times:
the speed argument is something I can not argue with.
I am not arguing that it's not fast.
What I am saying is that this speed is actually much more in touch with the game's end-game activities.
And that's why I am willing to look the other way. SF is broken, but as long as the game isn't balanced around SF and a player is able to do content without it, I am definitely in favour of keeping it in the game.
A player is still able to enjoy the game even without SF, but a player that has no means of getting the resources needed to do the current end-game activities can't. And that needs fixing or a crutch needs to be in the game.

Originally Posted by upier

As I've mentioned above and before - titles are the game's end-game content.
The problem is that this content is completely out of touch with the game. Take for instance the Sunspear title. This title is easily maxed if a player just vanquishes (despite the fact that I consider VQing to be farming - but that's mostly based on the stupid idea that you need to kill off every foe in the map, leaving you sometimes running around looking to a foe that will not pose a slightest threat, but you still need to take him out) Nightfall.
Take the Lucky title. Or the chests. Or IDing. Or sweets.
That's not something you have a reasonable way of completing.
It all involves some massive farming. And as long as something like this is in the game - we'll probably see more issues spawning from it.

Originally Posted by upier

Farmers do not want to finish the dungeon.
Farmers want the reward.
But they don't want any reward. They want the reward which has the best reward/difficulty ratio.
And if the reward/difficulty ratio changes for something like SCs in making the area harder to farm - people might just move onto a thing that has a better ratio.
These are guys that want to maximize their profit.
And to do so they don't care where or who on they do that.

I on the other hand, want to complete a specific dungeon for my title.
And not only that, I want to complete it on my ritualist or mesmer.

Can you now see the difference between a "player" and a "farmer"?
We are two completely different groups, that just happen to come together in certain areas.
Or better yet, clash.

Originally Posted by upier

The issue is that players aren't rewarded for "playing" the game.
They are rewarded for "farming" the game.
And as long as that is in place, the players that want to "play" the game will be left out. It just doesn't make sense to "play" the game if you want to go after the end-game content. Because you just aren't competitive.
And that's why I feel this is the core issue that needs to be looked at instead of just trashing SF.
And then we might see players returning or at least not choosing to "farm" the game in the numbers we see now.

Originally Posted by traversc

You're assuming that if SF gets nerfed, people will continue doing UW. That's completely wrong. UWSC is barely a decent rate of income to begin with. UW balanced is not something that can compete in terms of economy.

Nerfing UWSC with no compensatory mechanism would completely screw up everything. It would make people who are already rich insanely rich further polarizing the community between the elite (cf elitists) and non-eiltes. Basically, that would kill any faith I have left in A.net.
There will be fallout from nerfing SF, but I see a compromise as a possibility. To compensate, A.net could reduce money titles by a 2-3x. Or increase ecto and rare weapon drop rate by 3-4x.

I think that would satisfy both sides.

Originally Posted by upier

Why would the player be unable to farm?
(If this is referring to me personally, you're right I don't farm.
Yet.
The issue is that I still haven't decided which guy to main, and until I do that, there is no need for me to start worrying about booze, sweets, chests, ...
I am aware though that once I will decide on it, I'll need some heavy cash. The same way that Bergen saw a lot of me for a few days, back in the day when my mesmer decided that he wants FoW.)

There is no "faster than otherwise" in farming. The point of farming is to maximize your profits, so at the end of the day, there is pretty much only one way to do it. And if you aren't running that option, you're doing it wrong.
You don't run the guy whose hair you like best. You run the guy that gets the job done the fastest.
That's the difference between "playing" and "farming" PvE.

Is there anything to do after you max out all the titles?
Nope. The problem is that even with the "insane amount of money coming into the game from SCs" - maxing all those titles will take ages. It won't be near impossible as it is now, if you don't massively farm, but it will still take quite long. SCs don't give you enough money to get God in a week. The amount of money SCs bring in just give you a more realistic timetable to achieve the goals in.


A farmer isn't doing PvE for the sights or the feeling of accomplishment. The guy is doing for the money. So if the run will not be profitable enough to do it anymore, the guy will NOT do it.
So the farmers will move on or adapt and bring a new cookie.
They won't run random teams and "play" it.

But, yes, you are right, I did forget about ZQuests.
If the VSF is trashed and a new cookie pops up, then once the ZQuest comes rolling into town, people will run that cookie. The farming cookie works, so people stick with it. And if you don't run it, you won't be able to get into a "farming" team. But to think that "playing" teams will pop up if there is a farming cookie is just silly, as you have proven nicely yourself. The lone player looking to "play" PvE can't get a team because no-one wants to play PvE. And if there is a new cookie, no-one will either.
If on the other hand, the VSF is trashed and the run isn't profitable enough, the farmers will move on. And the only reason why they might return is if the ZQuest is a reward enough to farm it. In which case, I'd imagine, they'll still choose a farming approach, which once again means that lone sucker won't be able to play whatever he wants.
With farmers it's their way or the highway.

So that means the farmers are out of the question.
That leaves the "players". For the "players" to play - there can be no cookie (as said above - if there is a farming cookie, they'll join that one). And that means you are left doing one of the hardest areas in the game with players that can't H/H it or have people they can bug with no suggested team composition that will work.
What do you think is the success rate of such a team?

Take the Ursan-nerf for instance.
Did people move onto "playing" the areas they farmed before with Ursan? Did a new farming cookie show up or they moved away from the areas that can't be farmed as easily OR are the farmers now "playing" in those areas?
If farmers now "play" DoA, you are right.
And if they don't, I am right.

Originally Posted by Warrior_Babes

see, i have gwamm .. what can i do .. start it on another character? no.. this game is 4y old.. most of us seen everything, and for those ppl buying guildwars now.. well.. its like buying a ps1 when the ps3 comes out.
so u guys rly have trouble with ppl that after 3y (started about a year ago if i'm not mistaken) we cant have some fun clearing an area in ''record'' times? does it rly bother u? u think i care some newbie has a bds.. and i have none? no, why would i care what some1 elses has? he was lucky.. so what?

Originally Posted by Jeydra

The fact that Shadow Form exists affects everyone. Unless you are prepared to H/H everything, you can't just ignore it. I explained why in more detail earlier in the thread, you might be interested in reading.

If nerfing Shadow Form simply means everyone switches to Obsidian Flesh Elementalists and are just as effective, why are you opposed to nerfing Shadow Form?

Originally Posted by kanuks

Exactly. Many peoples in this thread are like "If SF gets nerfed then peoples will just ob flesh and it's even faster for farming". Oh yeah is it? Then why is that everyone farms with SF instead of ob flesh? There must be a reason no? That reason for sure isn't "We want a better challenge so we use SF instead of ob flesh". Peoples are so hypocrite.

Originally Posted by Targren

"More effective" != "Easier."

SF is easier. Obby tank is more effective.
SF is more forgiving. Obby tank is faster.

Combine with the PvX mentality of pugs.

Let 'em nerf it. It will just prove that they listen to the wrong crowd, and when all the farmers move on, they'll be able to have a good laugh when the Anti-SF crusaders still can't get a pug, and UW looks like Noelani Academy on a saturday night.